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Thread: The 396-6.2 swap project

  1. #261
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Giddings, Texas
    Posts
    7,732

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    Time for more swap related information.

    I had a truly terrible weekend a month ago going to the SS Rally in B/CS. The 6.2 had just about no power, kept blowing injector return line ends and the truck just shook like crazy.

    I tracked down the injector return line problem to the M715 fuel filler neck. I had swapped in a "new" one I bought from Barry in 2007 the week before the bad weekend. I use the fuel filler neck vent line to the stock air filter as my fuel return line. The "stock" vent line. It had a restriction inside that I aggrivated by changing out the filler neck. A new 1/4" end at the filler neck and all was good on that problem.

    The vibration was the front rear drive shaft ujoint at the VPW center output relocation flange. It was used when I got it in 2004. I shook it and found no play. It wasn't until I got home and used a bright light to look at the ujoint that I found a small crack on the inside of a cap. Removing the shaft found more dust than bearings inside the ujoint. No more vibrations at any speed up to 65 mph that I can feel now.

    That leaves the low power thing. It is a 6.2, so power is not really a known quantity with them. However, I pulled RED 2 years ago to the same SS Rally on my 2K pound trailer. I could hold at least 42 up hill in 5th and easily 54 on flat ground.

    Last year I flat towed RED behind the M715 coming home from the SS Rally and had to keep backing off at 50 mph because we hadn't dropped RED's drive shaft and I didn't want to hurt anything.

    This time, I had the 1,200 pound Mini on the same 2,000 pound trailer and I couldn't hold over 45 on the flat and in 4th had trouble getting 30 up some hills. Add in the return lines popping and I thought they were connected. I just wanted to get home by the time that weekend was over. I fixed the return line problem and it ran great, but still not as much umph as before. I actually found myself holding to the floor and not getting over 60 mph indicated. I was still down on power. I figured it just needed a good run to blow it all out.

    That was what last weekend was for. Central Texas Airshow in Temple with the LSMVPA. 93 miles each way. We pulled the hard top off, put on the troop seats and headed out Friday evening. Colton was driving, but we were running right at Warp speed (54mph gps, 48 mph indicated) most of the trip.

    Pistolnut had cooked up some really good bacon at the SS Rally. He told me where he got it and we made a slight 20 mile detour to stop in the awesome Green Sausage House in Zubcikville. 10 miles from I-35 in Temple and well worth the time to go. We got some supplies and each had a sausage burger. Then on to the airshow.

    Radial engines and MV's really do go well together. Lots of visiting with Sermis, learning how to drive a Gama Goat and once again the amazing social aspect of this hobby had all of us smiling.

    Colton had a date Saturday. Well, his girlfriend was going to be riding the US Flag around during the National Anthem at a rodeo and he wanted to be there. Then spend the rest of the rodeo with her. That was in Lexington at 1900. 1.5 hours at Warp speed from the air show. We packed up, said good bye and got in the M715 at 1630. Colton was going to drive again. He pushed the throttle to activate the fast idle and I heard him hit it really hard. He fired it up and no fast idle. He went to go and no throttle. It was stuck to the floor.

    I hoped it was just the IP end of the cable coming off. I dropped the little cirlce clip that holds it on a year or so ago and keep forgetting to buy a new one. Raising the hood dashed that hope. Still attached. A look under the dash showed the throttle cable had snapped right at the firewall.

    While I was under the dash a few other MV'ers were under the hood trying to figure out a way to rig it up. I used a stock CUCV throttle cable that was new 2 years ago. It was really, really frayed at the firewall. We couldn't figure out a way to repair the broken cable or rig up something. The throttle cable on a 6.2 is mounted vertical at the IP. That rules out a hand operated throttle.

    I do have a stock set up hand throttle on the truck. However, since it attaches to the the throttle pedal, it was useless here. I figured we had an hour to spare and since once on the road, we really use very little throttle. Lets just turn the idle all the way up and see what that does for us?

    Not much is the answer. 21 mph in 5th on flat ground. 12 up hill and 26 down hill. We pulled over in the first spot that offered some shade and started looking for another way.

    We ended up removing the cable casing, cutting it off and then cutting the frayed sections of the original cable. A wire terminal connector crimped onto the wire and about 10 feet of paracord through the throttle cable hole in the firewall had us going again.

    The footman loop on the back of the cab is a great belay point for a paracord throttle in the M715. I really couldn't pull the engine up faster with one hand, but a two handed pull and then holding through the footman loop had us going 45-55. That lasted about 15 miles until my fingers, hands and forearms started going. A 6.2 has a pretty darn strong throttle return spring. Time for plan 3.

    We pulled over in another shade spot and figured out a way to tie into the stock hand throttle system. It wasn't eligent, but it worked. I ended up going faster than I ever have with the 6.2. 55-60 up hills that would have put me below 45 the day before. The thing was screaming along now that I was actually using all the throttle travel. I think the cable had been going for a while and getting longer as strands broke off. I just didn't know it.

    We got to a town with stop lights and realized a problem. The terminal end I had crimped on was just about the same size as the hole in the firewal for the throttle cable. Paracord wrapped around it exceeded the hole size. I didn't give it much thought when there was a catch in pulling the hand throttle out the first time. Only when I pushed it all the way in and we didn't slow down below 43 mph. OOOPPS! I left it in 5th and just rode the brakes through town and got greens at the lights.

    I had turned the idle back down near normal when we rigged up the paracord by the way. We were rolling, almost on time and I could always turn off the ignition if I had to. That wouldn't work at the rodeo though. Lots of vehicles trying to turn in and a big dirt parking lot is not the place for a screaming engine or any kind of fast speed. We had 30 miles to figure it out.

    Our solution wasn't the best, but it worked. When we got 1/2 mile from the turn off, Colton crawled under the dash and pushed the knot/terminal end back through the firewall. He then buckled back in. We were now down to 14 mph in 5th on a 70 mph multi lane US highway for the next 1/4 mile. Always an adventure. Did I mention my blinker box seems to be mad at me? Sometimes it blinks and sometimes it is solid. It was solid for that part of the trip.

    I dropped him off and left it to idle alone to get back out of the parking lot. I had wanted to stay myself, but not with a broke truck still 20 miles from home. I went through the gears on idle and pulled the hand throttle to get on the way. Only nothing happened. He had undone our knot pushing it through the firewall. Yet another shade spot on the side of the road had me under the dash again. This 3rd attempt was the best. Full throttle and back to idle again. The rest of the trip was fun as I played with how fast I could attack hills. Not something I have done in the M715 since the 396 died.

    LMC has another cable on the way to me. I just need to figure out what caused the other one to fray and then stick it in. Plus figure out a way to get full throttle deflection.

    I also think figuring out a way for the hand throttle to be all the way to the IP would be a good idea.

    All the above is a direct result of modifications done to the truck by me over the years. That is why I figure it needs to be in the swap thread.
    Remember if you didn't build it you can't call it yours.

    6.2 powered M715, 5 M1009's, M416, 2 M101's, 2 M105's, 3 M35's, M1007 6.5 turbo Suburban project called Cowdog.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCz...HGkBCfhXZ5iuaw

  2. #262

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    I am ALWAYS fascinated by your adventures!!!
    Hope to have my 715 up and running with you soon!

  3. #263
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Greenwood, Indiana
    Posts
    1,705

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    Great improvised fix Tim. Those break downs that are not close to home are not fun...
    Thanks, George
    Joshua 24:15

  4. #264

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    Good Googly Moogly! Only you Tim only you! I'm glad you and Colton made it back okay with out other issues like getting ran over on the side of the road. Was there a kink or bend in the cable as it when through the fire wall? Maybe that put an undue strain on the cable? Or it just could have been a defective spot in the cable that worn out when you didn't need it to. Good luck in getting it fixed and back on the road.
    Zone holster maker

  5. #265
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Giddings, Texas
    Posts
    7,732

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    Thanks Joe, I for some reason have a memory of the cable showing up from LMC 2-1/2 years ago with the lead end, a plastic collar and a lead wedge blob on there somewhere. I remember cutting off the plastic collar used on the CUCV's to secure the cable to the throttle pedal. I don't remember doing anything with the lead wedge. Yet, it wasn't on either piece that broke.

    I think I will find that wedge shaped molding on the cable either didn't allow full throttle return and I cut/filed/melted it off without remembering. Or it worked its own way off from wear. Either way, I think the fraying started where it was. Once I see the new cable, it will be clear what I did and probably what happened.
    Remember if you didn't build it you can't call it yours.

    6.2 powered M715, 5 M1009's, M416, 2 M101's, 2 M105's, 3 M35's, M1007 6.5 turbo Suburban project called Cowdog.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCz...HGkBCfhXZ5iuaw

  6. #266
    Join Date
    Sep 1998
    Location
    North Central Wisconsin
    Posts
    11,532

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    Better you had this problem than me...I would have just been stuck...great on the fly thinking Tim!

    Also good to know nothing got wrecked...besides small parts...I could see myself piling into somebody trying to stop the thing after I got the throttle stuck open...
    Lord send your Holy Ghost into our hearts and make the desire of our hearts Your Will.

    Pro-choice, that's a LIE, babies don't choose to die!!

  7. #267
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Giddings, Texas
    Posts
    7,732

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    I got the new LMC throttle cable yesterday. Here is a shot of the new cable and what I ended up with to get home the other day:



    I think I figured out what caused the problem. The stock Chevy cable has a lead block a few inches from the other lead block at the pedal end. Once I saw it yesterday, I remembered removing it. I guess we created a stress point that turned to a broken cable when we did that.

    Then I tried to install it and realized why we removed the lead block. The cable won't work! The middle lead block doesn't let the IP end of the cable reach the throttle shaft. Learning from my lesson, I started cutting metal casing off the ends instead of removing the lead block again.

    I looked and looked at the 3 6.2 powered trucks in my drive way before I cut anything and couldn't explain why it didn't work. So, 1/2 inch at a time I cut off about 2-1/2 inches of cable casing. I got to the point that I can put the casing in the cable mount and the cable on the IP allows the truck to idle without constant tension on the throttle shaft. I also made sure I re set the idle to 650 before I called that part of the process done. I couldn't get to go lower than 675 with the idle screw all the way out, so I call that close enough.

    By that time, I had hurt just about all my finger tips and was out of day light. I will attempt the under dash part next week since I have a camp out all weekend.

    I couldn't stop thinking about why the replacement cable wasn't working though. The answer finally hit me a few minutes ago. That is a HMMWV pull out engine with a HMMWV throttle bracket. I am using a CUCV cable. The CUCV bracket is about 2-12 inches shorter than the HMMWV bracket. I just did a finger length comparison to an engine in my class. Now I know.

    I am already $35 into this cable and about 4 hours. I will see if I can make it work. I do think another CUCV cable will get ordered the next time I buy from LMC and a CUCV bracket swapped on just to eliminate this problem ever happening again.

    Jennifer asked what the problem was as I was crumbling about how it doesn't fit. I told her the problem is that I am using a 1985 Chevy cable on a 1967 Kaiser. She just nodded and walked away.
    Remember if you didn't build it you can't call it yours.

    6.2 powered M715, 5 M1009's, M416, 2 M101's, 2 M105's, 3 M35's, M1007 6.5 turbo Suburban project called Cowdog.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCz...HGkBCfhXZ5iuaw

  8. #268
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Wichita Falls, TX
    Posts
    603

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    I saw a video on FB of someone with similar problems... a kid was sitting on the radiator core support of an old Chevy pickup, leaning back over the engine and working the throttle as they were going down the road.
    I'd be more comfortable with the paracord.

    If I'm ever on the side of the road I hope you happen by, I though I was good at roadside repairs... you da king!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barrman View Post
    I told her the problem is that I am using a 1985 Chevy cable on a 1967 Kaiser. She just nodded and walked away.
    LOL, my wife didn't even give me nod... or even ask..

    I tried using the same cable on mine. Was browsing at Autozone for more bits to MAKE it work on the foot feed end and came across this:

    http://www.amazon.com/Spectre-Perfor.../dp/B0008G5FZ6

    Over priced, kinda gaudy... but the little doohicky at the foot feed end is perfect for the M715... once you drill the hole in the feed lever thingy out a bit.
    .... just don't cut the cable to fit until you have it all assembled. that adds 3 hours when you're trying to thread a frayed cable end through an itty bitty little hole.

  9. #269
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Giddings, Texas
    Posts
    7,732

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    I got the casing trimmed down enough to hook up at the IP with the engine at true idle speed. I had already a few years ago made the round throttle cable hole in the firewall a square. So, it was just a matter of putting the new cable in and letting it lock by the pop out tabs. Then I had to rethink the pedal to cable connection.

    I had been using the stock little loop thing with a slot in the top. I know a picture would be great but that is a really tough spot to get pictures at. The end of the CUCV cable in the slot worked fine but I wasn't getting full throttle. I thought it was just a little bit of missing throttle and since it was a 6.2, I really didn't think it mattered much. I found out while driving home on the paracord that I have been missing a lot of engine power.

    I thought about putting a slot in a bolt, slipping it over the cable and then tightening a nut on to squeeze the cable and give me full travel. But, having just had a frayed cable leave me playing Magyver. I looked for a less invasive option. What I came up with was washers and a zip tie.

    I tilted the stock throttle attachment loop up and ran the new cable through it. I had about 1/2" of slack to take out inside a 1/2" sized D shape opening now. A 3/8" washer, 5/16" washer and finally a 1/4" washer filled up the space and took most of the slack out. A Zip tie around the cable right next to the lead block at the end took the rest of the slack out and kept the washers on.

    I was by myself doing this since Colton was off at another horse show with his girlfriend Sunday. It is hard to see the IP throttle shaft from inside the M715. However, I could now get movement as soon as I started pushing the pedal compared to a lot of travel before any movement or resistance before. FLooring it had the metal floor stop contacting the throttle so I know bending the throttle shaft probably won't happen. I just need to have a helper to see how much more travel the IP has left in it. Hopefully just a hair.

    I closed the hood, put all the tools up and went for a test drive. It was nice having instant throttle while idling down my dirt road. When I got to pavement I got on it pretty hard and had great acceleration. Reaching my normal 2nd to 3rd shift point of 24 mph pretty darn fast compared to before. I shifted and found the pedal on the floor.

    I had lost the little round clip that holds the cable to the IP somewhere on the way home or at the airshow before we left. The old cable stayed on just fine. The new one came off when I shifted. I kind of knew what it was right away and just slowed down, turned around and idled home. Why not fix it? Because to get to the cable at the throttle shaft the right hand has to be stuck down between the coolant crossover/thermostat housing and the IP. I have a still very sore and kind of healing 2nd or 3rd degree burn on my right hand from doing this on the side of the road last week. I didn't need to go above idle the 1/2 mile home.

    I was actually fortunate that the cable end popped off. In my rush to do a test drive I hadn't latched the hood down. It probably would have popped up and caused all kinds of damage as soon as I got into 4th. Sometimes things breaking are for the best I guess.

    Hopefully, the Help section at the local Orielly's will have a clip on my way home tonight. If the rain lets off enough to let me travel home that is. Lots of closed roads due to flooding yesterday and it is still raining like crazy today.
    Last edited by Barrman; May 12th, 2015 at 01:38 PM.
    Remember if you didn't build it you can't call it yours.

    6.2 powered M715, 5 M1009's, M416, 2 M101's, 2 M105's, 3 M35's, M1007 6.5 turbo Suburban project called Cowdog.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCz...HGkBCfhXZ5iuaw

  10. #270
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Giddings, Texas
    Posts
    7,732

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    I drove the M715 in a parade here in Giddings Saturday. With other MV's, no riders on the troop seats. However, a bunch of Colton's fellow band members asked to ride in the back returning to the high school a few miles away. He had RED to drive. I noticed a lack of power getting to the high school and then leaving the school empty I had almost no throttle travel or power.

    The case of the cable worked its way into the cab cutting off any cable travel. So, for the 3rd time in just 2 weeks I drove home at idle and my feet flat on the floor. I pulled the casing back out, tightened up the hose clamp I had just snug and all is well again.

    We have had over 12 inches of rain here the last few weeks. Normally, 4-5 inches is what we get the month of May. A few years ago we only got 7 inches over an 18 month span. Now going on 2 weeks of rain everyday. I have the top off the M715 and needed a truck to bring something home from work today.

    Radar showed nothing coming our way so I drove on in. 2 hours later we got over an inch of rain in just a few minutes as a thunderstorm formed right on top of us and just sat. The joys of driving a convertible. I hope to find my phone dry in the center console this afternoon and the trash bags over the seats to have worked. Actually, I hope to just find the truck. A tornado was sighted less than 1/4 mile from our parking lot. I am almost 1 mile the other direction inside a brick building so I didn't hear or feel a thing. Nobody has called, so I guess all is well.

    I obvously had no more than 1/2 to 2/3 throttle travel the last two years. I have so much more power now with just a throttle cable change. Granted, it has been 3 years since I drove the 396 powered truck. But, I really think the 6.2 is better in most things. Except for rpm range and that amazing song of side pipes above 5,000 rpm just below your ear.

    While I might get nostalgic about the 396. I also am saving a bunch of fuel and realize there is no way the 396 would tolerate 5th gear at idle going up a hill without even a shudder.
    Remember if you didn't build it you can't call it yours.

    6.2 powered M715, 5 M1009's, M416, 2 M101's, 2 M105's, 3 M35's, M1007 6.5 turbo Suburban project called Cowdog.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCz...HGkBCfhXZ5iuaw

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