1968 International Harvester 1-ton wheels for myM715, fitting issues.

I found a local set of six 16.5 x 9.75 1968 IHC tubeless steel wheels that have our same lug centric 6x7.25 bolt pattern and have a 5-1/2” backspace. They are made by Kelsey Hayes and came from a 1 ton IH truck that has 5/8” wheel studs. I intend to mount a set of Military Goodyear Wrangler MT H1 tires (37 x 12.5 x 16.5 tubeless radials) and run them on my M725. Before I start buying anything for these wheels I want to get your thoughts on this plan . . . . . and also your thoughts on what I see as a potential snag:

The back side of these wheels is stamped and is not flat like the M715/725 wheels – so the contact/handshake with my stock M725 brake drum WMS is different from the stock set-up in a two ways:

1. There are just two circles of contact with the brake drum WMS- an outer stamped raised ridge and an inner stamped flange that you can see in the pics. Once installed, the actual back side of the wheel mounting surface around the wheel stud hole (that’s the area between the stamped ridge and inner stamped flange) is left hanging about 3/16-1/4” away from the drum face. I don’t see how I can get a good/safe connection between the wheel and drum/hub if I tighten these down and I think some/most of that gap will remain- even if I get the 300 ft/lbs of recommended torque. That said, I haven’t tried to tighten them down yet because it seems like it could deform the wheel mounting surface if they are not meant to be squashed down onto a totally flat brake drum? I’m trying to get a pic of the 1968 IH 1300 brake drum WMS that these would have gone on originally so I can see how the handshake between wheel and drum was designed, but haven’t had much luck finding one yet.

2. The stock M715 wheel mounting surface is mostly flat, but they have an approx 30 degree stamped conical “washer” on the back side that goes into a matching conical recess in the brake drum. See pics below. That conical “washer” fills the larger wheel stud hole on the brake drum - see Pic below. I think that conical washer helps to keep the brake drum from moving around- likely providing way more brake drum rotational support than the three drum machine screws do. Now I know lots of us run recentered wheels with 3/8 and ½ flat plate steel centers that have no conical “washer” to fill that brake drum hole and I haven’t heard that folks have had any problems running that combo so maybe that’s not a fit issue that I need to worry about???

I’m researching how I could fabricate a drop-in conical spacer for each wheel stud that goes between the wheel and brake drum to provide a solution to both these fit issues. I think you can see what I’m thinking about if you look at these, which I’m getting a handful to modify/experiment with: “Misalignment spacers link”

Any thoughts and feedback are appreciated.

Cheers,
Bryce

The wheels:

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/...psx1fgee3d.jpg

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/...psvozeuler.jpg

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/...psldlesgur.jpg

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/...pscmydvewb.jpg

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/...psd2ewvpch.jpg

Mounted on M715 hub with M715 drum

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/...psz5yflckg.jpg

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1ey1mg3u.jpg

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/...psdkj7zaig.jpg

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/...psmguolbzv.jpg

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/...psz2fa0py8.jpg

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/...ps48pq9niw.jpg

The back side of the stock M715 wheel:

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/...psv0wj32it.jpg

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/...pswbfhw6gc.jpg

Pics got out of order . . .measuring that gap:

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1ey1mg3u.jpg

The link to the spacers that I'm thinking of modifying that I forgot to insert in the first post:http://www.ebay.com/itm/M16-METRIC-M...RVvzTK&vxp=mtr

If they are lug centric, I can't imagine much of that mattering. The studs will take the weight and the wheel would not need to be mated to the drum IMO...The conical washers are probably not a bad idea though...

I think the 9.75 wheel is a bit wide for that tire first off. The 16.5 wheel doesn't have much bead surface.

I wonder if you could make a plate out of some spare wheels to fill that gap.

I customized my own double beadlock wheels and made lots of mistakes but in the end am able to use them. On one wheel I needed a spacer that I cut out of a spare stock wheel. It was a bunch of work but the spare wheel wasn't safe to use anyway so it wasn't a real loss.http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/...psi3ttnqtz.jpg

Maybe you can do something similar to make those wheels work?

I cut the center out of a wagon wheel from the '70's and the stock M715 center fits perfectly. I may build myself a set of those still but I will not run them without some Staun inner bead locks.

2nd the 9.75 is a bit wide. That's what I've got my 37s on, and I've walked one off on the road (due to my crap tires leaking down every month or so, and I forgot to check the pressure). That was exciting. :/ They're also hard to mount that wide. The beads sit about 5" apart naturally, and short of the enormous shot of ether I used to explosively blow them on, I don't know how you'd do it. I got nowhere with a ratchet strap around the tire. Maybe a cheetah tank?
I'm going to a set of 6.75" wides, and running low psi to minimize crowning. Just as far off the other end, I'm afraid.

So your new wheels look like they're supposed to leave the lug seats in the air stock? They just contact the IH drum at the pressed ridge and the inner lip? Weird.
Just went out and looked, and a 16" spare wagon wheel I have sitting around is the same as yours- lugs in the air. The stock Ford 6.75 is not- they're minorly dimpled up away from the drum surface, but most of the wheel center is in contact.

I'd consider washers under there only if you get the height exact so that the pressed ridge is in contact...lug centric is fine, but flapping in the air on only the lugs sounds bad.

Maybe you're overthinking it...bolt em up and see if they walk around? Based on the variety in my yard (which I've run without problems), and the clamping force of tapered lugs, I'll bet it will work fine.

300 ft/lbs?!!? Is that a 5/8 lug thing? Sounds REALLY high. My F350 9/16 only calls for 110, I think, and small cars are mostly 85 or so...
Just googled "5/8 lug torque", and most are saying 140 max. But i know zero about IH.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...RjrpdMhsLB4WhA

Quote:

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Lug Nuts:
7/16” Wheel stud = 75-85 ft-lbs
1/2" Wheel stud = 85-95 ft-lbs
5/8” Wheel stud = 130-140 ft-lbs or wheel stud manufacturer’s spec.
12mm = 90 ft-lbs
14mm = 110 ft-lbs
Weld Racing does not recommend the use of lubricant when installing lug nuts

---

.
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=226945

Quote:

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5/8 x 18 grade 8 bolts are torqued to 180 ft lb, but the best I have been able to find out, you just hand tighten the axle flange jam nuts or the grade 8 bolts with washers hand tight or a low torque (say 40 ft lb or so) on the impact gun. Wheel nuts, it seems that 80-105 ft lb are what everyone recommends, and most don't mention whether to use grease (which gives more clamp than dry threads). I'd use grease to prevent any galling. Racing aluminum wheels and even circle track steel wheels (with 45 degree lug nuts) aren't intended for huge torque. The only exception I have found is the 1980s vintage Dodge pickups with 5/8" studs and Budd 5/16" thick steel plate centers that took 200 ft lb. on the tapered lug nuts (seem to be about 110 degree included angle, not 90 deg. like circle trackers use). Dodge used 325 ft lb on the flanged steel lug nuts used on duallies.

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Thanks Suby and Jeeper for the ideas and rim width comments.

Subybaja: So what 37" tires are you running with your 9.75" rims? The Goodyear 37 x 12.5 x 16.5's Wrangler MT's are made for an 8" rim, but the Goodyear spec sheet says they will also allow an optional 9.75" rim width too. I know this wheel/tire combo I'm proposing somewhat precludes me from ever really airing down below around 20 PSI, but I'm okay with that.

And you may be right . . . I'm an over-thinker as well. I may just mount them up and see what happens.

The 300 ft pounds for the lugs is right out of the M715 service manual. I guess Kaiser engineers wanted to make sure they were on really well.

Same tires, MIL surplus.

That 300 lb is with a wheel where everything is a flat solid stack, though. I'm with you in thinking it would warp those wheels.

Suby:
A favor . . . .do you have any pics of those tires on your 9.75" wide rims? Seeing the possible mismatch of rim and tire widths might help me see what i'm possibly getting myself into. You could text or email them to me if thats easier than pic posting here.
uniflasher@gmail.com or text/cell at 503-358-2252

cheers,
Bryce

If the wheel doesn't fit flush with the drum, you won't be able to keep the lug nuts tight. The flexing of the wheel running down the road will allow the lug nuts to loosen and fall off.

Next thing you know you will be singing Kenny Rogers "You picked a fine time to leave me loose wheel".

[QUOTE=kwai;"You picked a fine time to leave me loose wheel".[/QUOTE]

Ha, you just make that one up? Hilarious . . . .but point taken.
Bryce

I realized I was being pretty negative.

To correct: With as hard to find as they are, I'd run those wheels. If you were ordering from Summit, I'd say go narrower, but that's not really an option.

My problem with my 9.75s boils down to stupid on my part- low pressure, and non-safety bead 16.5s. Keep your pressure up, and they should be fine.

Some pics (sorry about the size):

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...x.jpg~original

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...x.jpg~original

I didn't take any thing you wrote as negative. On the contrary, quite helpful. Thanks for the pics- I see they are a tad bit wide, but far from a total mismatch. That does help me a lot with my decision.

Cheers,
Bryce

Bryce, did you get those IH rims mounted up and working safely?

Not yet. I had other summer projects to work on so the six wheels just sat in my garage since my last post. I did fabricate several steel spacers that filled the void between the wheel and drum, but haven't tried them out yet.


I'm not sure what I'm going to do with the wheels- especially since I already have a brand new set of five restored original M725 wheels with brand new radial (with radial tubes) Yellow Sea (Chinese military) Michelin knock-off 9:00 x 16 military tires mounted and ready to roll. Haven't driven on them yet as I'm still on blocks in the driveway . . . as the restoration is still underway.

Cheers,
Bryce

I wonder if my wheels are the same as yours. I bought them (powder-coated with the Hummer tires mounted) in 2015 from a local zoner who did not know their origin. I didn't even think to check if the mating surface was flat with the drum. Today I noticed there is a stamp near the air valve: 27026

They sure look similar to mine. You have a pic of the backside of the wheel?
I'm considering selling my set of IH wheels. Turns out that I'm pretty happy with my Chinese military Yellow Sea 9.00 x 16 radial tires (Michelin knock-offs) on stock rims.
Bryce